Casting Shadows

BF responded with:

They’ve already factored tactics into initiative which gives that skill a huge boost.

Just out of curiosity, I’ve set the 55 tonners against each other and I think you’ll be surprised at the winner. The scorpion was the bottom of the list having never won a match. No one will be surprised there. Griffin was second last, which surprised me, but I suppose a sniper isn’t that great one on one. Shadowhawk and Wolverine would switch back and forth with number of wins, but it was actually the Shadowhawk that inched out the Wolverine in the end. The surprise winner was the Dervish. Completely undefeated against all the others in every simulation I ran. All of the mechs were stock, with no modifications.
By the way, the Warhammer fares really badly in my tests, overheating badly when it fights nearly any mech. Even the 500 year old Hammerhands takes it out every single time.

My response was limited to:

The secret is in the sauce

Douglas, inspired to speculate by these teaser results commented:

If the ranges are random, I can see the Shadowhawk winning in the medium class. It has a nice balance of weapons for all ranges, with no real strength in any (if I remember correctly).

I was thinking again about how speed and tactics worked well when the gunnery scores were at normal levels. The reason why mechs with a focus on medium range weapons could rarely even hit me, is that if I allowed a shot at all I’d still feel very safe at 9 hexes. At maximum range for their medium lasers, and mine for my medium range weapons, my odds were still better due to speed and terrain tactics giving me more defence. I’d usually hit with some of my weapons and usually be missed altogether. Even better was a PPC variant! With superior mobility and range, I would never allow a shot at all. I could always be at the range I wanted and punch holes in them from outside their maximum range.

Is there anything in your coding that allows for the faster mechs to use their speed to be in the best possible range for both defence and offence, while the slower mech is forced to take what shots they can get? Would mechs instead choose to kill another mech slowly if they could do it at little or no risk to themselves? Adapting to the mech they are faced with…? Or would they just be at random ranges and unload with what they have available…?

This is one of the main reasons why, when combined with Runeslinger’s tactics, his Warhammer was almost always a threat. Like a few other mechs, you always had to worry about those twin PPCs if you were a medium-mech player trying to skirt his ranges. They were arm mounted as well, so combined with a torso twist, it made it almost impossible to hit him on his “blind” side. It had something for every range. Most medium mechs, other than some AC2 variant freak (I made one once), will have to get into his PPC medium or short ranges, before they can really make effective attacks themselves. Then he has “back up” weapons and more armour to help out.

It was not at the optimum tonnage for its movement according to my math and comparisons, but it’s look, concept, and overall style had to count for something. It even had a light that could get shot off. 🙂

So what worked for the Warhammer is that it didn’t need to chase. I’d have to approach one very carefully. I could easily take on any slow mech with a lot of medium lasers but that twin PPC punch had a long reach. The tactical advantage made the PPC awesome.

Ton per damage-per-second, the medium laser is the best weapon in the game. Always have one or two, I feel. However, combined with superior mobility and tactics it can be rendered mostly ineffective. Against a mech with a PPC and greater mobility, you’re pretty much screwed no matter how many medium lasers you have. It becomes like a bigger version of the small laser at that point.

Get in close on a slower target and hit it with a mountain of medium lasers and you’ll realize the theory in reality, I think. No sane player will let you do that if they can help it, though.

I think I should say that I didn’t like the Wolverine so much as I liked it’s movement for its weight class (maximum number of tons left over for armour and weapons for a mech walking 5, running 8, and jumping 5). I’d always play a variant if I could.

When the Uziel, the 50 or 55-tonner with twin PPCs, appeared I quickly forgot about the Wolverine. The new mech looked cool on top of it all. 🙂

My variants tended to favour:

(1) At least one PPC for long range punch… One is usually all that could be managed effectively. Anything that can’t match my range and mobility is pretty much dead with smart tactics. I’ll make it impossible for them to hit. Even one PPC is enough to ruin the day of any mech if it can’t shoot back.
– Sure it had a minimum effective range, but being that close was generally a bad idea anyways (where medium lasers and AC 20s can finally say hello to short range). Then they later put extended range PPCs in with no minimum effective range in the game… Get extra heat sinks and you’re good to go. There’s your main gun.

(2) At least one medium laser, preferably two… You will get into short/medium range or there will be mechs that can catch you from time to time, so never be without.
– Best ton per damage-per-second ratio among other things. Only mechs that can’t afford bigger weapons rely on these as primary offence. You have to close within 3 hexes to be in short range. Even small lasers can shoot at that range. Big mechs have a lot of big weapons—you can’t let them hit you with them often. For mechs that can catch you or for when you close for the kill, you’ll need these as backup weapons.

(3) Something else… An alternate strategy or trick to complement the PPC ‘standard’ and medium laser ‘backup’.
– One thing that worked really well for me was getting rid of the SRM-6 in favour of an SRM2. It was cheaper and left more tons for other things like heat sinks, came with more ammo, and was the only launcher in the game to come with inferno missiles. Better than a flamer for both overheating an opponent (in one shot sometimes—especially if they just unloaded and missed with everything) and for range, it was a cheap and effective weapon to shut an enemy down.

This was the thing that most players never saw coming. After dancing with them at farther ranges and them always pushing their heat levels, an opportunity comes up that says “Attack now!”. Close and unload with everything including this. Your mech should be designed to be able to do a full salvo for several turns—preferably endlessly. One hit from infernos and you cripple a mech that was already overheating some. They can either: (1) let you shoot them while they try to cool, or (2) overheat further and really risk shutting down.

On top of that you could set the map on fire and create smoke “cover” to complement your tactics and so on. Fun stuff…

Also, I know that many players swear that jump jets are useless, but I couldn’t imagine playing without maximum jump range. Even the fastest Locust would get cornered eventually, and there were so many more ‘you can’t hit me’ options for use of terrain with jumping. In fact, a fast-medium tactics game relies on them heavily, I think.

Sometimes you could even block a shot altogether by taking away line of sight. I forgot how many times I simply jumped behind a wall, building, or range of hills after leading other mechs into what they thought was my doom. I could always move 5 hexes in any direction to land in the terrain of my choice while other mechs lost their movement advantage or struggled even further in rough terrain or in cities.

BF ended the discussion with the final round-up of ideas:

Douglas, your instinct is right on the money, and tested with a few modifications to the algorithm mentioned above. I changed the random distance to a ‘negotiation’ between the two ‘mech’s speed. Each ‘mech tries to reach their optimal range decided by their own and their opponent’s damage potential. ‘Mechs whose optimal is closer than current run or jump forward, ‘mechs who’s range is farther away, walk or jump backwards. I added some random terrain to make jumping more valuable. It was as close to simulating your strategy as I could without programming a full game 🙂

Heavy/Assault Mechs still add 4 or 5 medium lasers but now they throw in a few AC5 and PPCs. Some runs show preferences for a single LRM 10.

4 Gunnery still tends to the laser side of things, lower tends to LRM, AC and SRM, though  still with plenty of lasers.

The ‘mechs that the algorithm is discovering are doing a great job at taking out ‘mechs from the book, like an Atlas, but I created the exact Wolverine with AC2 that you mentioned, and no-one has beaten it yet. 🙂

The results, when done, looked like this:

• All ‘mechs, regardless of size, evolve toward Medium Lasers plus at least one long-range weapon, tons of heat sinks, and lots of armour.
• The open weight class ends up 5-7 Medium Lasers, 2-4 long-range weapons, and a screaming running speed of 2.
• Limiting to Medium or Light ‘mechs, we get 4-5 Medium Lasers, typical 5-8 movement (no jump, surprisingly), and one or two long-range weapons
• Choice of long-range weapons depends entirely on Gunnery skill. With a Gunnery of 4, Large Lasers, and PPCs win. With Gunnery 2 or less, LRM10s and AC5s are ideal. Gunnery 2 or less will often add an SRM6 as well.

Who won? BF summarized the results with this telling quote:

It depends. 🙂

He followed up with a challenge:

You know? I take that back. There is a winner. One mech to rule them all.

Think back to your 3025 mechs, and which one epitomizes the results we saw here?